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The Cloth Diaper Compendium: Bleach, PUL and More (Part III)

by julie on December 7, 2013

 

FinalMyth

This is a Guest Post Contribution. Stacy Mojica is the Founder and Executive Director of Cloth for Everybum. In addition she is a Real Diaper Association Circle Leader and advocate for Cloth Diapers. Her passion and excitement for cloth diapering, mentoring and education is outstanding! Stacy has spent many hours on this educational post. You can learn more about her in the bio below.  Please be respectful in your comments or opinions or THEY WILL BE DELETED!  I do not tolerate swearing, name calling or inappropriate language on this blog. I will leave up all comments for all sides or views as long as they are respectful! 

If you are interested in writing a guest blog for My Cloth Diaper Stash fall, please contact me at Julie@MyClothDiaperStash.com. Thank You!

This is Part III of a three part guest post series on information related to The Cloth Diaper Compendium. Please stay tuned for future posts in this series in regards to some of the topics that were not addressed in these articles. If you missed Part I or II, be sure to check out the link below before proceeding to today’s post:

The Cloth Diaper Compendium: Introduction and Detergent Build Up (Part I)

The Cloth Diaper Compendium: Tide, Rockin’ Green, Charlie’s Soap, Laundry (Part II)

Below is the written blog post in audio form so you can choose to read along with the audio or just listen yourself. If you would prefer not to listen, simply read on. The audio is broken down into two different sections.

BLEACH

TCDC lists “chlorine bleach” in their stripping document as the first step to strip a barnyard or ammonia stink. This section reads “Your first step is to eliminate the current barnyard problem: add 1/4 to 1/2 cup of chlorine bleach (nothing color-safe or oxygen-activated/powered; you need the disinfection power of chlorine for this!) in a load full of (clean) diapers.

Yes: chlorine bleach, any other type will not disinfect your diapers, which is what you need.”27 They also recommend bleach often throughout their group as a superior stripping method.

Although there are varying stances on this recommendation even amongst laundry experts, it is not true that one needs to disinfect in order to strip, something that is clearly stated and recommended in their stripping document. Disinfecting is only necessary in the presence of a bacterial or fungal infection in the diaper area.28 You may feel it is necessary to disinfect, but it is not technically necessary.

Another concern is TCDC’s claim that bleach will not cause holes in natural fibers, that it is impossible, but there is significant anecdotal evidence of even diluted chlorine bleach eating holes into hemp and bamboo.29 I have personally had hemp come out of the washer with holes literally eaten out of it after having been through a month of a super staph diaper rash infection during which I had no choice but to bleach.30 By recommending bleach, this group is by analogy, prescribing a broad-spectrum antibiotic for every single disease. Like a broad-spectrum antibiotic, it will solve the problem, but you have no idea why. And then you become dependent on the antibiotic to solve everything. And then you have to increase your dose again and again because your problem is becoming immune to smaller doses, or at least requiring constant dosing. Is this really the place you want to be? Or do you want to troubleshoot each individual problem as it arises in order to completely perfect your washing routine?

Aside from using Bleach when it isn’t necessary, it is also dangerous when added to ammonia. We all know that Ammonia and Bleach should not be combined while cleaning the bathroom. Shouldn’t the same be true in the laundry room? Yes, yes it should.31 The chemistry behind this chemical reaction is that when chlorine is mixed with ammonia OR urine it will form chloramines that will produce carcinogens (cancer-causing agents), which then get flushed out into our waste system. And water treatment plants are not equipped to filter out chloramines, so they stay in the system, and in our environment. Not to mention that the resulting chlorine gas is lethal in enclosed spaces – i.e. your washing machine.32

Now, it should be duly noted that the amount of chlorine gas produced in this reaction is only “a few grams” and not enough to be harmful (T. Sutherland, personal communication, November 15, 2013), unless of course you stuck your head into the washing machine and took a big whiff. This doesn’t mean that you should go right ahead and use bleach all the time because it’s perfectly ok. It means that there are precautions one should consider before making the decision about if, when, and how to use bleach, and if so how much.

It’s interesting to note that chloramines are actually created on purpose in some cases, by adding ammonia to chlorine, in order to be used as a disinfectant, and added to our drinking water!33 But there are many sources that caution against this,34 and point out that there are very few studies concerning the potential harmful health effects of chloramines ingested, and none at all concerning the effects of chloramines in water we bathe in or inhale from steam. By analogy, this is quite similar to the problems we are having with GMOs in this country. The corporations selling them all say they are safe, and all studies that contradict them are either suppressed or not funded. 35 “A poll of 500 scientists working in either government or recently privatized research institutes in the UK revealed that 30 percent had been asked to change their research conclusions by their sponsoring customer… In the U.S., corporate donations [to scientific research] rose from $850 million in 1985 to $4.25 billion in less than ten years. According to the Atlantic Monthly, “increasingly the money comes with strings attached …. In higher education today corporations not only sponsor a growing amount of research – they frequently dictate the terms under which it is conducted.” (Smith, 2003, Seeds of Deception. Portland, ME. Yes! Books)

Who can we believe anymore? What sources are credible if even the most respected sources publish studies with changed conclusions, sponsored by the corporations of the products they are doing research on?

I am not a lone researcher crying out on this. There are many experts in the cloth diapering community and industry who share the recommendation that bleach should be used sparingly, if at all. Cottonbabies may recommend ¼ cup bleach once per month,36 and there are many reasons why that makes sense, because it simplifies things. But they also recommend sunning as an effective alternative for families who don’t want to bleach.37 It is for the same reason that Charlie’s Soap recommends a disinfectant at every wash load, and lists bleach as an option. In their recommendation for laundering cloth diapers, Charlie’s Soap recommends 1 tablespoon of chlorine bleach, 4 tablespoons of hydrogen peroxide, or 4 tablespoons of vinegar per wash load to disinfect. Yes, even vinegar is a gentle disinfectant.38 An article that was posted yesterday at 9am on the AppleCheeks blog,39 corroborates this information, and says that using bleach on their products voids their warranty, and states that bleach can be harmful to your baby’s health, and that it is in fact NOT effective at killing yeast, though will kill all strains of bacteria. An article quoted by them 40 explains why, referencing Clorox’s statement that chlorine bleach is effective at mold remediation only on “hard, non-porous surfaces,” and so not effective on surfaces that are porous, like wood or especially like cloth diapers!

That being said, bleach can be useful, especially in cases of bacterial infection when diapers actually have to be disinfected (J. Anello, personal communication, November 23, 2013). It can also be the answer when a family has reached their wit’s end and is about to give up cloth diapering altogether. In this case I would absolutely recommend bleach. But it is not the answer for everyone. And to assume as much shows a glaring disregard for science, common sense, and for the very core of our cloth diapering community.

All this, and we have yet to answer the question of whether or not bleach actually “fixes” an ammonia problem. I wish I could give a definitive answer, but the answer is not yes or no, it is a very complex explanation that falls somewhere in between. One thing that can help us understand how bleach can help to solve an ammonia problem is starting at the facts we know. Bleach kills bacteria. There are different types of ammonia. There is one type of ammonia that smells “fishy-“ this type of ammonia is caused by bacteria from feces. So urine-ammonia is not involved here. If you kill the bacteria, you kill what is causing the ammonia. THEN you can literally wash all your problems away, but you do have to actually wash them away – with detergent. So the bleach cannot act alone. It must be used in conjunction with detergent to complete this type of bleach strip (J. Anello, personal communication, November 23, 2013). And once again this type of bleach strip is not the cure for every type of ammonia problem, just this one type. Also it could be argued that any other disinfecting method (sun i.e. UV rays, 1 tsp of tea tree oil, oxygenated bleach) could be used in conjunction with detergent to kill bacteria.

In summary: This knowledge is going to knock the socks off of the cloth diapering community, because it explains pretty much all the mysterious unexplained things about ammonia and laundry problems that cloth diapering parents have been struggling with for years, and attempting to get answers from forums and blogs and other groups that just haven’t found the words to explain this phenomenon – until now.

The type of ammonia build up that is urine residue caused by detergent build up can be washed out by hot water.

The type of ammonia build up that is urine residue caused by mineral build up can be solved with washing soda or RLR.

The type of ammonia build up that is urine residue caused by “strong pee:” diapers sitting in the pail too long, improper air circulation, bad overnight diapers, changes in urine as your child gets older can be solved by rinsing diapers by hand before placing them in your diaper pail or spraying them with bac-out as a pre-treatment.

Feces residue caused by bacteria is not an “ammonia” problem, since ammonia (NH3) by definition is urine residue, but its stink is often mistaken for or mistakenly called “ammonia.” Stink/residue of this type can be solved by disinfecting diapers, and then washing out the residue with an effective detergent. Disinfecting methods include: chlorine bleach, direct sunlight, Tea Tree Oil, GSE, oxygen bleach, or hydrogen peroxide. So this could be bacteria present in the feces of your child during a bacterial sickness. Look out for this problem especially in cases when your child has diarrhea.

“They have no regard for manufactures warranties, saying “I care more about my child than a stupid warranty!” But many families save enough money to buy quality diapers because of their warranty. If they ruin these diapers and void their warranty many of them won’t be able to afford a whole new stash, get frustrated, and go back to disposables.”

~C. Jean; cloth diaper advocate

PUL

To address another issue, TCDC’s PUL document states that you may dry PUL on high heat every time and it will never delaminate or have any issues unless it is low-quality PUL. This I would never believe, since I have seen the highest quality diapers and pail liners delaminate and have issues with the PUL when dried too often on high heat. Specific ones I have seen with my own eyes and could show a picture of right now: Rumparooz (which are TPU not PUL), Charlie Banana, Oh Katy, and Bottombumpers. There are many, many ways to ruin even the most high-quality diapers.41

Not to mention that almost all manufactures recommend to either hang dry or tumble dry low. There is a reason for that. My research indicates that detergent residues left on PUL as it goes through the dryer can cause chemical reactions that can start delamination. Of course you have to understand that detergent build up is real, in order to understand this! I don’t have a source for you but I can say I have it on good authority, if you’ll believe me, and I can tell you that the reason why it’s not written out there yet today is because diaper manufacturers don’t want to risk telling you (their customers) that that is the reason why you can’t dry your diapers on high heat, because then lots of people will just say that there is no detergent residue on their diapers (even though you can’t see it!) and dry anyway. And then manufacturers can get into a lot of trouble having to fulfill warranties and there would be a lot more delaminated (wasted, useless) diapers floating around the world today.

Now my research also indicates that PUL was originally invented in order to withstand autoclaving in hospitals, a sanitation process utilizing very high temperatures. A material suitable for autoclaving is cited to withstand “multiple” washings, but no number of washings is specified.42 So maybe PUL can withstand 20 autoclaving treatments, but not 21. There also may not be detergent residue in the autoclaving machine! So that factor that we experience in our home machines may not be an issue at an industrial level.

I am also not sure that what is autoclaved in hospitals is the same exact kind of PUL that is used in diapers (there are different thicknesses, known as “mil” and there are also different lamination methods). I’ve also seen several different looks of delamination – sometimes the laminate is peeling away and that is classic delamination by its definition, but sometimes the laminate melts and adheres to itself and looks “wrinkled.” Some of you reading this may have seen this phenomenon. Just knowing that these things can happen indicates that there is much more going on at a chemical level than most scientists can even fathom.

I think that this subject needs to be researched further before stating something such as “drying on high heat is absolutely fine.” And even post-research that might not be a wise statement. TCDC administrators state that if a diaper does delaminate, then it was a “poor quality” diaper. What I see in reality just simply does not jive.

EVERYTHING ELSE

I have not addressed everything that ought to be addressed in this preliminary report. There are several other mysteries in the field of cloth diaper laundry that I would like to research further, one being this issue of PUL and another being TCDC’s claim that Dreft does not contain fabric softener. I believe this to be true, but I also believe that there are additional ingredients in Dreft that cause diapers to repel, because I have spoken to several cloth diapering parents who have used Dreft and had their diapers repel immediately following. Another claim is that vinegar feeds yeast and cannot kill it. Vinegar is a disinfectant, but whether or not it kills yeast is another story. I have read several other websites corroborating the claim that vinegar feeds yeast, but I have also heard that vinegar baths are good for our children afflicted with yeast, so the verdict remains undecided in my mind, until further investigation is done. I’m sure I have missed other questions that you will ask in the replies below this blog post, I will be happy to research and include in further exposes.

“Don’t drink the Koolaid. “

~ Real, anonymous, cloth diaper advocate

CULT MENTALITY

Their group description reads “9,000 strong CAN’T be wrong! <3 The most INFAMOUS cloth diaper troubleshooting group on Facebook. WARNING: You must have a sense of humor to use this group ;)”

Well yes it can be wrong, and it is wrong. Infamous is the perfect adjective. Just because a group is large doesn’t mean it is right. I can think of many instances where history shows this to be true.

One reason this group has so many members is because each week one of their admins goes around to other groups recruiting people to join! And a good percentage of us are in there simply because we like watching Horror. Though you can bet your bottom dollar I will be banned in 12 hours or less once one of the admins gets wind of my exposing their flaws in public. The problem is that I would love to expose them in private, but I know they will not listen to me.

Unfortunately, this just isn’t a group one can infiltrate from the inside. They don’t allow free speech and are big fans of censorship. In my honest opinion, they have grown their own little cult, which is sadly not so little anymore. And cult mentality is such that you must be made to believe the group’s collective beliefs, no matter how crazy, wrong, or fanatical. You must allow yourself to be subjected to the brainwashing. Or you’re kicked out. This is a sad, sorry situation. It’s about time someone did some muckraking about it.

This blog post is what I am doing about it. If you want to do something about it too, then share this blog post- share, share, share, all over Facebook. And leave the Cloth Diaper Compendium. Encourage all of your friends and acquaintances to leave the group until or unless they will change their stance and advice on the issues discussed in this report. Until then, TCDC is not a good influence in the cloth diapering community and is not giving people sound advice.

In fact, I propose a campaign against the group. I think we, as educated and informed parents in the cloth diapering community, need to stand up for ourselves, and our fellow cloth diapering parents. After all, being educated and informed is what got us here in the first place, is it not? Let’s show these admins that we will not let THEM infiltrate US from the inside, and that WE will not tolerate the perpetuation of cloth diaper myths. We may not be able to comment directly on posts in their group, but we can exercise free speech outside of the group by privately warning our friends who we see have joined the group, and in publicly sharing articles like this one in other cloth diapering groups[36], businesses and organization pages we manage.

Please keep this conversation civil and professional. We are not mounting this campaign in order to attack or shame anyone. We are simply exercising our right to peer review of the information presented in TCDC, and would like to maintain the integrity of cloth diaper experts by falling back on evidence-based research. We care deeply about the cloth diapering community and would like to decrease the prevalence of misinformation on the subject of cloth diapers anywhere on the Internet. It is important for a self-proclaimed authority on cloth diapering, with such a large fan base, to be sharing and citing correct information.

I challenge you to look beyond the doctrine and dictates adhered to in TCDC, follow the footnotes I’ve cited in this article, and read for yourselves the science behind Tide, Bleach, PUL and any other questionable pieces of advice you read in a group, forum, or blog post.

“One should not believe everything one reads on the Internet.”
~Benjamin Franklin

33 http://water.me.vccs.edu/exam_prep/chloramines.htm

34 http://www.chloramine.org/chloraminefacts.htm

35 http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Food/Seeds_Of_Deception.html

36 Please acquire approval from group admins before posting in any group

37 http://www.cottonbabies.com/blog/2013/07/cloth-diaper-basics-can-i-use-bleach.html

38 http://econutssoap.com/how-to-disinfect-laundry/

39 http://applecheeks.squarespace.com/posts/2013/12/6/say-no-to-chlorine-bleach.html

40 http://livinglifeforce.tripod.com/mold.html

41 http://rumparooz.blogspot.com/2013/01/ruin-cloth-diapers.html

42 http://www.ehow.com/about_4696415_what-polyurethane-laminate.html

43 http://www.cottonbabies.com/clothdiapers.php#detergent

Please acquire approval from group admins before posting in any group

 

 

 

Author bio: Stacy Mojica is an accredited Real Diaper Association leader, founded the Low Country Real Diaper Circle and Cloth for Everybum. She has 2 daughters ages 33 months and 17 months. Stacy has a degree in English and ran a small artisan cloth diaper shop via Etsy for 1 year, but has made her career in cloth diaper advocacy and education.

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{ 105 comments… read them below or add one }

Suzi Satterfield December 7, 2013 at 8:39 pm

I have been militantly opposed to the nonsense spouted by The Cloth Diaper Compendium ever since running into them on another blog… and having them declare warfare on my own blog.

In fact, it’s because I so oppose their actions that I bought clothdiapercompendium.com. Currently, it’s directed at my own website, but I do have plans for turning it into a compendium of links for all things cloth diaper related. The Cloth Diaper Compendium could be a wonderful resource… if it was open to discussion and was not a personality cult intent on dispensing bad advice.

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Rachel December 7, 2013 at 10:15 pm

Suzi, what is your blog?

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Rachel December 7, 2013 at 10:23 pm

Oh, nevermind, clicked your name and found it!! LOL!

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Kate December 7, 2013 at 11:44 pm

hang on, I do not think oxygen bleach disinfects. Even their label does not list disinfection as a use for it. Am I missing something?

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Suzi Satterfield December 8, 2013 at 7:54 am

Oxygen bleach cannot *claim* to disinfect due to governmental regulations. (I’m in Canada, so specifically, Health Canada guidelines.) However: the liquid oxygen bleach that I use is 6-7% hydrogen peroxide. Medical grade is 3%. There are protocols in place for using medical grade hydrogen peroxide for laundry disinfection. It’s using the same quantity of medical grade as I use of oxygen bleach… so half the amount of the active ingredient.

Those protocols were written for prevention of disease spread on textiles. With that in mind, I am comfortable with using oxygen bleach as a disinfectant.

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Stacy Mojica December 8, 2013 at 8:46 am

Thank you Suzi! That was very informative.

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Kate December 9, 2013 at 12:12 pm

I see. I guess maybe I’m confused about what oxi bleach is then. Is it the same as oxiclean? Or other store brand oxy powders? I have oxi powder from whole foods. I’ve used it to remove stains on clothes and diapers but never attempted it for disinfection. How should I use it to disinfect? (I’m in the US, if that matters at all). Thanks!

Also, can you clarify on Tide F&G? I thought all Tide (and most commercial detergents for that matter) had optical brighteners, including Tide F&G. That is one of my top reasons for avoiding commercial detergents.

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Suzi Satterfield December 9, 2013 at 2:32 pm

OxiClean is a powdered oxygen bleach. When it mixes with water, it becomes hydrogen peroxide. I’m not sure what the percentage of it is, but I’m going to have to email the company to find out. :-)

Interestingly, I found out recently that European hospital sanitation protocols include hydrogen peroxide in their laundry, not bleach.

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Stacy December 16, 2013 at 8:30 am

Tide Free and Gentle does indeed have brighteners disodium diaminostilbene disulfate http://www.pg.com/productsafety/ingredients/household_care/laundary_fabric_care/Tide/Liquid_Tide_Free_Gentle.pdf

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Tina December 8, 2013 at 4:47 am

I will admit I didn’t get very far in simply because the first bit I read is not nor will it ever be true by science… That being said… I just wanted to say one thing… IF you have ammonia in your CLEAN diapers that you are stripping (in MORE than a gallon of water to 1/4-1/2 cup of bleach aka about 5% concentration roughly) then your not CLEANING your diapers properly because a CLEAN diaper should NOT EVER have ammonia in it… IDC what detergent you use – personally I prefer Eco sprout and or soap nuts but that’s just me… But when I strip I follow the science and to TRULY sanitize and remove impurities (aka funk causing bacteria) you need bleach… It kills 99.9% of junk and even hospitals use it to sanitize… And in a 5% solution it’s not enough to destroy ANY natural fiber… ESP not hemp or bamboo!

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Stacy Mojica December 8, 2013 at 8:45 am

Hi Tina,
I certainly agree with you on this “If you have ammonia in your clean diapers that you are not stripping then you are not cleaning your diapers properly because a clean diaper should not ever have ammonia in it.” Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m not sure if you are saying there is a place in my report that contradicts that?

And I know this doesn’t really cut it, since I’m not directly quoting anyone, but a lot of my sources have asked to remain anonymous, due to the sensitivity of this issue, so suffice it to say that I have it on good authority that bleach can even eat holes into cotton – yes cotton prefolds. It certainly weakens the fibers.

You are welcome to use it. My report is not intended to scare people away from using bleach, if that is their choice. It’s your diapers, your baby, your dirty laundry ;) of course. I simply would like to educate cloth diapering parents on some facts about bleach and PUL (and Tide and other detergents if you read Part II from Friday) that I feel are not well known in the cloth community.

Yes bleach kills all the bacteria; it certainly does. My argument stands though that there are also other things that are more natural options that are less harsh/damaging to your diapers, that work just as well.. that kill all the bacteria also. If you read further into the report you will get to these statements. Do not underestimate the power of the sun :) UV rays do some incredibly powerful disinfecting work. You do, however, have to have them out in direct sunlight for at least 20 minutes, and the sunlight has to be touching both sides of the diaper, so you can’t have them on the ground or up against a wall/fence. Of course sunning is totally pending weather, and some of us don’t live in a climate that is very conducive to that. So there are the other alternatives like hydrogen peroxide and oxygen bleach. If you follow my citation where I discuss all of this in the report, you can read Mona of Soap Nut’s article on disinfecting. Since you like soap nuts you would probably respect her explanation of science then if not mine :)

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Candace December 8, 2013 at 8:48 am

I followed their docs on striping my diapers because I have never done it in the seven years and said that I use homemade detergent and tea tree oil. I was told my diapers are not clean because I use homemade detergent and tea tree oil is a joke. I never buy chlorine bleach and from their doc suggestions I did, and used 1/4 cup in a five gallon bucket, soaked them for the recommended amount of time then washed after. And now I have holes in my hemp inserts, so yes speaking from a granola stand point of never using chlorine bleach, it does and will put holes in natural fibers. If my diapers where truly not clean, my baby now and my child prior to her probably would have sever burns on their bums. But neither of them have experienced that in cloth, but I followed their advice and now my inserts have holes from a one time chlorine bleach soak.

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Tina December 8, 2013 at 11:42 am

To Candace: I don’t know how in the world that happened because I have been doing the 5 gallon bucket to 1/2 cup ratio since I STARTED cloth diapering (LONG before I ever found anything online about it) because my Mom used to work in a nursing home and that was the disinfecting ratio that they used for the bed sheets there. I still have the same diapers I started with when my daughter was 6 months old and she is now over 2 years old and I have a range of MF, NC, Bamboo & Hemp – I have NEVER gotten a single tear, hole or anything else for that matter and I also use SUPER HOT water with it too (again like my Mother was trained to do) so I’m unsure if you put the bleach in after the diapers were added or what but had you done the bleach & dawn first (I personally choose dawn for its ability to remove TONS of residue with just 1 tbsp of soap), water second, swirled to mix prior to adding the diapers then you shouldn’t have had any issues at all…

To Stacy I was responding specifically to this section:
“00:00

BLEACH
TCDC lists “chlorine bleach” in their stripping document as the first step to strip a barnyard or ammonia stink. This section reads “Your first step is to eliminate the current barnyard problem: add 1/4 to 1/2 cup of chlorine bleach (nothing color-safe or oxygen-activated/powered; you need the disinfection power of chlorine for this!) in a load full of (clean) diapers.

Yes: chlorine bleach, any other type will not disinfect your diapers, which is what you need.”27 They also recommend bleach often throughout their group as a superior stripping method.

Although there are varying stances on this recommendation even amongst laundry experts, it is not true that one needs to disinfect in order to strip, something that is clearly stated and recommended in their stripping document. Disinfecting is only necessary in the presence of a bacterial or fungal infection in the diaper area.28 You may feel it is necessary to disinfect, but it is not technically necessary.

Another concern is TCDC’s claim that bleach will not cause holes in natural fibers, that it is impossible, but there is significant anecdotal evidence of even diluted chlorine bleach eating holes into hemp and bamboo.29 I have personally had hemp come out of the washer with holes literally eaten out of it after having been through a month of a super staph diaper rash infection during which I had no choice but to bleach.30 By recommending bleach, this group is by analogy, prescribing a broad-spectrum antibiotic for every single disease. Like a broad-spectrum antibiotic, it will solve the problem, but you have no idea why. And then you become dependent on the antibiotic to solve everything. And then you have to increase your dose again and again because your problem is becoming immune to smaller doses, or at least requiring constant dosing. Is this really the place you want to be? Or do you want to troubleshoot each individual problem as it arises in order to completely perfect your washing routine?

Aside from using Bleach when it isn’t necessary, it is also dangerous when added to ammonia. We all know that Ammonia and Bleach should not be combined while cleaning the bathroom. Shouldn’t the same be true in the laundry room? Yes, yes it should.31 The chemistry behind this chemical reaction is that when chlorine is mixed with ammonia OR urine it will form chloramines that will produce carcinogens (cancer-causing agents), which then get flushed out into our waste system. And water treatment plants are not equipped to filter out chloramines, so they stay in the system, and in our environment. Not to mention that the resulting chlorine gas is lethal in enclosed spaces – i.e. your washing machine.32

Now, it should be duly noted that the amount of chlorine gas produced in this reaction is only “a few grams” and not enough to be harmful (T. Sutherland, personal communication, November 15, 2013), unless of course you stuck your head into the washing machine and took a big whiff. This doesn’t mean that you should go right ahead and use bleach all the time because it’s perfectly ok. It means that there are precautions one should consider before making the decision about if, when, and how to use bleach, and if so how much.”

That is ALL I could make it through ESP with having been in the hospital much of my life, not to mention how in the world do you think our Grandmothers and Great Grandmothers got THEIR CD components nice and clean and white??? Diluted bleach! I even asked my Grandmothers before I ever started CDing what their thoughts/opinions were and my very radical Grandma who had done BOTH (my Mom & her siblings being born between ’56-’76) said she actually like CDing better because she KNEW they were cleaner BECAUSE she could bleach the nasties out of them and the disposables she never knew who touched them or what kinds of junk were in them, BTW her flats lasted the FULL 23 years that she used them and hers were all 100% cotton… So personally I will NEVER follow just anything but what I KNOW for a fact that has been safely used for MULTIPLE generations but I’ll admit when I found Kate’s documents I was very happy to fully understand the science behind what I already knew to work and to “get” it finally instead of wondering why it worked all this time :)

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Jo December 9, 2013 at 12:28 am

Hi Tina -
I think the point here is that different strokes for different folks – what works for you won’t necessarily work for me, and vice versa.

For what it’s worth, the healthy authority that I work in, which covers at last count, 85 facilities, including long-term care (gerontology), DOES NOT use bleach for laundry. In fact, you can’t even order it from Distribution. It makes the fibres in all the textiles in use in those facilities exceptionally brittle. Since moving away from bleach use, the health authority has saved hundreds of thousands of dollars on linens. Additionally, there was heavy recommendation to remove bleach from cleaning routines due to the caustic nature of it when interacting with the skin of children and the elderly. This change came to our healthy authority about 15 years ago, so long after your grandmother was doing diaper laundry.

That said, my grandmother and mother were also cloth diaperers. They never used bleach to whiten, they used liquid bluing, which you cannot buy anymore. They used liquid bluing because even in the 70s, people knew that bleach was hard on a baby’s skin. When my daughter was born, my mother passed on my cloth diapers to me. They were, at the time, well over 30 years old because they were also used by my elder brother. They were in pretty rough shape after the 6 years of continuous use between my brother and I, coming from a much more conservative washing routine than you claim your grandmother had, and even then, they are pretty close to threadbare.

Natural fibres break down with washing, no matter what routine is being used. They wear out, the fibres in the threads start to slough off, and eventually they become threadbare. That’s not from the detergents being used, it’s from the natural state of decay of a material made of plant matter.

So, that’s probably a whole big TL;DR – in the end, my point is that your methods are not necessarily going to work for me, mine won’t necessarily work for you. But please don’t say ‘Because SCIENCE’ as the reason you have found that TCDC’s recommendations work for you. Because science is backing me up too.

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Stacy December 16, 2013 at 8:35 am

Jo that was very well said! And thank you for sharing your story of your grandmother’s diapers. That was very informative for me too and I will certainly pass along the new knowledge :)

Janice December 9, 2013 at 1:33 pm

My grandmother used lemon juice and sun to whiten her diapers, and rinsed them with Vinegar. :-)

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Stacy December 16, 2013 at 8:37 am

Janice, you know I am hearing more and more recently about vinegar use in the old days, to cure yeast etc. I think vinegar is being scapegoated a lot too, with the whole hard water myth. Vinegar deserves a second look. I think it can be very useful. And i just cured my daughter’s yeast by disinfecting with vinegar in the wash. It worked!!

Sheena December 8, 2013 at 6:14 am

This is all just so silly. Most CD advocates are largely concerned with helping babies stay in CDs when a problem arises and mom is frustrated, right? If these “9,000″ women have found a wash routine they’re happy with, whats the big deal? Yeah, bleach isn’t great to use all the time, yeah, its not great for the environment, but neither are disposables – which many of these 9,000 babies could potentially be in in now, weren’t not for the advice doled out by The Compendium. Which is the lesser evil?

I don’t know who is right in this debate (and thankfully I haven’t needed to consider bleach for any reason, yet), but this post (calling The Compendium out and then claiming you aren’t trying to shame anyone), and buying a domain (speaking of cult-like control of information…) just seem so immature it drains the credibility out of your arguments. Whatever happened to “to each their own?” Let’s ALL just get our panties (er, diapers…) untwisted and move on. Surely there is more to the world than this ongoing squabble.

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Suzi Satterfield December 8, 2013 at 7:56 am

Actually, I bought the domain. Not the authors of the site or this article. If Kate Shabinov did not silence any who disagreed with what she suggested or offered alternative solutions to her own, this would not be necessary. But she does, so it is.

It’s not cult-like to buy a domain. It’s spending $3-$10 at a registrar.

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Mia December 8, 2013 at 3:31 pm

No, but it is kind of weird to squat someone else’s cloth diaper laundry help group’s name … You don’t see that as a little strange?

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Suzi Satterfield December 8, 2013 at 5:07 pm

Nope. It’s vindictive. There’s a difference.

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Aja January 18, 2014 at 2:34 am

LOL, I like you more with every post, Suzi.

Emily February 12, 2014 at 1:24 pm

OMG I want to be your BFF Suzi! Absolutely! I joined the group because another group (Natural Homekeeping and Cloth Diapering) had some folks ranting over the drama in TCDC. I can’t believe they DIDN’T kick me out. I repeatedly asked why their methods work and I got harassed and yelled at for questioning their dogma. I was even told that one of the admins had a masters in Organic Chemistry. Big whoop. I have a BS in Biology and I’m a zookeeper but far from expert on anything. Funny enough, she’s listed as “the PhD” in their lineup of Admins. I posed a simple question about using bleach at the rate they suggest and the warranties of my diapers (hello, these things are an expensive investment that I don’t want to destroy) and they pretty much told me that I’ll change my tune as soon as my baby has a yeast rash. I quit after that, they weren’t funny, just mean.

Janice December 9, 2013 at 1:54 pm

The problem is that TCDC advice can void warranties and destroy diapers. This may not be a problem for some cloth diaper users, but those that have struggled to save up and purchase their stash, expecting it to last through many children, may wind up giving up on cloth because their diapers wear out sooner than they should.
So, because TCDC’s advice is hurting cloth users in the long run, someone needed to stand up and share that there ARE in fact OTHER ways to successfully wash cloth diapers which maintain manufacturer warranties and the life of a diaper.
These articles are not meant to be a hair-pulling contest, they are meant to give cloth diaper users the ability to use cloth diapers with minimal toxic chemical exposure and get their moneys worth out of the life of those diapers. It’s also meant to support the many mothers that have built modern cloth diaper business with their blood sweat and tears – only to be told, in a very catty way by admins of TCDC, that no matter how many years of experience and how many years of research they have done, that they don’t know how to wash the cloth diapers they have created.
By supporting the information in these posts, I’m choosing to support cloth diapers, families that use cloth diapers AND the businesses that work so hard to make cloth diapers. I hope this clarifies why these posts are so important and are not a personal attack but are in fact the support that the cloth diaper movement needs at this time.

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Melissa Mendez December 9, 2013 at 3:03 pm

Hear hear!

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Candace December 8, 2013 at 10:01 am

From: environmental protective agency
Disadvantages of Using Chlorine Bleach As a Disinfectant
Many institutions do not commonly use chlorine bleach products because they:
1. Lack detergency – Contain no wetting agents to allow the disinfecting agent to penetrate soils, so
surfaces MUST be pre-cleaned before the chlorine bleach will effectively kill germs.
2. Very caustic to human tissues – Can burn skin and eyes
3. React with other chemicals to create toxic byproducts and gases – Incompatible with products that
contain ammonia, hydrochloric acid, phosphoric acid and acetic acid (vinegar).
4. Fumes can be irritating – Occupants of buildings frequently complain about bleach and bleach
related odors migrating into their work areas.
5. Can emit a carcinogenic gas if it comes in contact with formaldehyde, or is hyper-chlorinated by
hot water.
6. Extremely corrosive to metals – Chlorine bleach can attack and corrode metal surfaces as well as
permanently discolor countertops.
7. Discolor fibers and colored surfaces – Carpets, entrance matting and clothing are just a few of the
fibers that can be damaged when contacted by chlorine bleach solutions.
8. Damage floor finishes – Chlorine bleach can attack the floor finish coatings on the floor requiring
them to be removed and replaced. This is an expensive process.
9. Rapidly inactivated by organic debris (blood, tissue, saliva, microbes)
10. Diluted solutions quickly lose their effectiveness. Chlorine bleach is unstable and can lose its
oxidizing and disinfecting strength rapidly compared to “quat” based disinfectant-cleaners and/or
sanitizers.
11. Are expensive to use – The recommended dilution ratio for proper disinfecting of surfaces is 1:10
(13 ounces of chlorine bleach per gallon of water) while “quat” based disinfectant-cleaners are effective when diluted up to 1:256 ( 1/2 ounce per gallon of water).

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Confused December 8, 2013 at 11:19 am

We are not mounting this campaign in order to attack or shame anyone…

uhm? Really? Because I’m almost positive you called them a cult and want to infiltrate… Hi pot! Meet kettle.

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Evie S. December 8, 2013 at 6:11 pm

TCDC is a cult by definition :

Cult
: a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous

: a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much

: a small group of very devoted supporters or fans

This group bans anyone who advocates the use if homemade detergents, questions the safety of Tide (and like detergents), or claims that eco-friendly detergents actually work, etc.

One of the moderators actually went as far as to ban me from Facebook for commenting on a blogger’s facebook post (who isn’t a member of their group) for simply stating my reasons why I chose not to use Tide. Seriously, how childish is that?

I have friends that were in that group that were frequently harassed for suggestion their favorite detergents or for asking diaper care questions that did not involve bleach.

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Jessica December 8, 2013 at 11:32 am

This post is beyond childish… I have a hard time taking any of it seriously when you call out a need to “infiltrate” a “cult”. Yep, a cloth diaper cult!! These women are surely out to brainwash anyone who cloth diapers their babies. Evil, evil women! Seriously, y’all make me laugh! How about, you wash diapers your way, I’ll wash them my way, and let’s all just get along!

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Jessica December 8, 2013 at 11:35 am

And I find your sources quite comical too… linking to a bunch of blog posts with other peoples OPINIONS is not stating fact. So far, I’ve heard a whole lot of opinion, hearsay, and anecdotal evidence. But no FACTS.

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Evie S. December 8, 2013 at 5:56 pm

Fact : There are numerous ways to clean and care for diapers.

These blogger’s opinions are based on experience, unless they are lying, they are speaking from truth (fact). What would a blogger have to gain from spreading lies?

Fact : Many cloth diaper manufacturers strongly suggest avoid using bleach (in fact I can only think of 2 that recommend it). After all, they are the creators…give them some credit.

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Jessica December 9, 2013 at 1:34 pm

I can say the same back to you!
Fact : There are numerous ways to clean and care for diapers.

The cloth diaper compendiums opinions are based on experience, unless they are lying, they are speaking from truth (fact). What would a group admin have to gain from spreading lies?

Fact: There are diaper manufacturers who DO recommend using bleach… they are the creators, give them some credit.

Sigh, you “one true way” mentality is as bad as those who you oppose.

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Evie S. December 9, 2013 at 3:09 pm

I DID mention that there were manufacturers that recommended bleach, but besides the BumGenuis diapers that I have, all other care tags of the diapers that I own there are instructions not to use it…so I personally do not use it because I would rather not void the warranty of diapers that I own. After all, I did pay good money for them. I did not say that all manufacturers advise not to use it. There are reasons why that many suggest not using it and I respect their opinion too.

I also said that there is not “one true way” to care for diapers…but…

Why is it that TCDC bans and reports those to Facebook (yes this has happened to multiple people) who mention anything that goes against their set of beliefs. I have seen others in that group being ripped apart for stating that they use homemade or eco-friendly cloth detergents.

Sure, it is fine to have your own opinion on how to wash your diapers…but seriously, if something works for someone else, why on earth criticize them for their methods? In fact, if they do not want to use bleach or Tide (for obvious environmental reasons) then why should you care? They aren’t the ones washing your diapers. Posting meme’s in order to bash those who use “fairy dust” and “unicorn piss” (eco-friendly detergent) and making claims that manufacturers are just spreading lies in order to sell their product isn’t playing very nice either. That being said, this group does not appreciate the suggestions of those who look for eco-friendly options either. If someone want to use Tide (and by mentioning this particular brand, I am not stating that TCDC says that it is the only option) then fine, I will not criticize them for it simply because I won’t ever use it.

Again, I do not hold the “one way” mentality. Sure, I have my own method that I have used for years with no problems…as does everyone else. It works for me, but it may not for someone else…I totally agree with that. To completely disregard anyone else’s opinion and completely write it of as an option because it does not match yours is ridiculous.

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Jessica December 9, 2013 at 3:39 pm

It’s quite simple really… if your methods are working, then you don’t need the compendium.

If your methods aren’t working, and you aren’t willing to try bleach or any other methods they recommend, then the compendium isn’t for you.

Their group is about recommending their way of cleaning diapers. They clearly do not agree with homemade washing soaps and whatnot. Who cares??? If you (general) want to wash with homemade stuff or other “cloth safe” soaps, then don’t join the group. Or leave the group. It’s that simple. The fact that people are so filled with hatred for a group who advertises their way of cleaning diapers is comical to me. Make your own facebook group and run it the way you want! Past that, people can make their own educated decisions about whether or not to be a part of the compendium group.

Get over it. You’re not a part of the group. At the end of the day, what they say doesn’t affect your life or the way you wash your diapers, so why do you care so much??

Evie S. December 9, 2013 at 4:13 pm

I only joined when a friend recommended it via Facebook.

I also a part of a local natural mothering group and a few moms were having stink issues…so as a result we joined various online groups/forums to find a variety of ways to “troubleshoot” washing issues. Plus, I enjoy being a part of as many cloth groups as I can just to be knowledgeable and perhaps share some suggestions. How good is a group if it is only full of newbies and a select few people who may or may not have cd washing experience in a variety of conditions.

I am no longer a part of that group after the admins posted nasty stuff about that the blogs that I follow (yes, I am capable of making an intelligent decision of what and what not to believe) and the members started posting ridiculous memes and started leaving nasty comments on other blog Facebook pages and banned people for leaving non-threatening comments and the accusations that cd safe detergent companies are only in business to sell their non-working products to their deceived consumers.

I had nothing against TCDC up until that point. I agree that this whole thing has gotten out of hand

Melissa Mendez December 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm

Actually, if you follow the links, you’ll find that a lot of them are actually good sources and have further links to where they got their sources. It can be hard to find good sources on the internet, but if you exercise good judgment, it is possible.

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Heather Johnson December 9, 2013 at 3:25 pm

Yes, check the sources cited in the links to evaluate the true worth of a source. That is basic research 101.

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Rachel December 8, 2013 at 12:08 pm

I’d like to recommend that the blog owner invite an admin or founder from the compendium to do a guest post as well. Let them state their side and show their sources. If you truly want to educate the cloth diapering world, then let’s put it all out there and let everyone choose how they’d like to launder their diapers. I think it’s only fair, after these posts attacking the compendium, that they have a fair chance to state their side. Not sure if they’d even want to after how you’ve portrayed them, but I think it’s a good idea.

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Suzi Satterfield December 8, 2013 at 5:11 pm

Here’s the thing: even in their docs (which, yes, I have seen), there is no sources cited.

They can easily state their side by a.) being willing to have the discussion publicly anywhere or b.) putting it up in their own blog. If they’d even been willing to have the discussion at all, it wouldn’t have gotten to this point in the first place.

As for the founder, Kate has done a GREAT job portraying herself in the light cast on her by this post all on her own. Signing a post on my own site “yours in antagonism” is a perfect case of that.

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Rachel December 8, 2013 at 5:13 pm

My comment was directed at the blog owner, thank you.

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Suzi Satterfield December 8, 2013 at 5:24 pm

That doesn’t make what I’ve said any less accurate, Rachel.

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Rachel December 8, 2013 at 11:26 pm

I don’t need your opinion, Suzi. I was making a suggestion to the blog owner. Your 2 cents were not needed nor asked for- accurate or not.

Suzi Satterfield December 8, 2013 at 11:58 pm

That’s so sweet. :-) You seem upset by my honesty?

Rachel December 9, 2013 at 1:37 pm

Not upset by what you’ve said at all… Upset by the fact that you feel the need to butt in on every single comment and post your opinions. This comment was not directed at you. Period. Regardless of how you feel about it. I was not asking for what you thought about it. I was making a suggestion to the BLOG OWNER. I ask that you kindly butt out.

Suzi Satterfield December 9, 2013 at 2:35 pm

Unfortunately, Rachel, since this isn’t your forum, you don’t have the standing to tell me to shut up. :-) That standing belongs only to the owner.

Evie S. December 8, 2013 at 6:20 pm

How about this…

To be “fair”, TCDC should allow people to speak freely about cloth diaper care within their group rather than label all cloth diaper detergents as “fairy dust” or “unicorn piss” (yes, exact terms used multiple times). They do not appreciate anyone else’s opinions but their own.

As a cloth diapering mom for over 5 years, I have had great success with my homemade and cd/environmentally safe detergents and oxy bleach. Those diapers smelled clean out of the wash and the never had an infection because they were “dirty” by TCDC standards.

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Emily February 12, 2014 at 1:31 pm

They really got mean with me when I told them that I’m using homemade detergent. Their response was to tag me multiple times saying “WE (I interpret this as the “royal we”) don’t allow people to recommend home made detergents”. Then they gave me a line about soaps and detergents and I asked for more info. I told them that I use my own recipe to clean bird poo off of the rugs I keep under their cages and it comes off so much better than with commercial detergents! They said that was BS and I’ll be sorry using it on my diapers.

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Whit December 8, 2013 at 12:29 pm

I find this whole thing to be silly. To each their own. Attacking a group of woman for finding what’s right for them & then stating you are not trying to “shame anyone”. Take a look in the mirror, you are the pot calling the kettle black. Furthermore, when you can cite more credible sources other then blog post and you tube, many others and my self can take you more seriously.

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Mitch December 8, 2013 at 2:01 pm

Question. Do their way of doing things and recommendations directly injure you or your children? What’s that you say? No? Who cares how you wash or I wash or they wash. The last time I checked you couldn’t force anyone to do anything that they don’t want to do over the internet. The people who want to take their advice do so under their own free will.

This post itself is pathetic and childish full stop. The host should be ashamed of posting unfounded attacks and calls to troll a group that minds their own business.

Suzi you are just lame. Do you really expect people to believe that you had a sudden brain fart to create a cloth diaper compendium page (and actually call it that) that is completely unrelated to riding their coat tails? You must think we’re all english majors.

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Suzi Satterfield December 8, 2013 at 5:14 pm

Aw, how sweet! Actually, there are a few things for you to keep in mind here.

1.) My site is actually Cloth Diaper Addicts.
2.) I have stated directly in my blog that I bought the domain clothdiapercompendium.com for no other reason than to make sure that Kate cannot have it. Ever. Including ten years after my death.
3.) If you look at the posts on my website, you’ll see that they date back to before that group started dispensing their bad advice.

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Disturbed December 8, 2013 at 5:48 pm

For 10 years after your death? That doesn’t sound…. odd. I don’t know of anyone who would spend their hard earned money just to get one over on an internet acquaintance. I googled The Cloth DIaper Compendium, your redirect site is first, which then leads to your blog. That is the definition of riding the notoriety of someone else. Very disturbing.

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Suzi Satterfield December 8, 2013 at 7:37 pm

It’s all a matter of what that price is. We’re talking about something to the tune of $3 a YEAR.

And the first hit isn’t the redirect to my site. It’s actually the post where everything started. They fired the first salvo and attempted to troll my site. I just doubled down and did it better.

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Rachel December 8, 2013 at 11:29 pm

Except she could simply buy THEclothdiapercompendium.com, because, you know, that’s the name of the group (Tcdc). Nice try Suzi, but not so bright. Really just childish and, as Mitch said, lame.

Suzi Satterfield December 9, 2013 at 12:01 am

That’s nice? You know, I’ve managed to stay polite and respectful… yet you insist upon throwing out personal attacks. But, again, it costs me $3 per year. Less than the price of a coffee at Starbucks… all to troll effectively. It’s worth it. And that’s a REALLY good idea. Maybe I’ll go buy that one, too. And the .net and .org.

Are there any other domain names you’d like to recommend?

Jennifer December 9, 2013 at 11:47 am

Suzi, I’d like to recommend therapy..

Rachel December 9, 2013 at 1:38 pm

Yes, therapy is clearly what you need. No adult should ever be as vindictive and hateful as you are about DIAPERS. It’s poop we’re talking about here people!!

Suzi Satterfield December 9, 2013 at 2:38 pm

Really? Something that costs me less than I spend on coffee requires therapy? Nah. Oh, wait. Maybe since credentials are so important, I should ask where you got yours? Are you a psychologist or psychiatrist? No? Then your unsubstantiated personal gnosis is meaningless.

The difference between you and me is when I think someone or something is wrong and I don’t like how they treat people, I double down to make my point. I haven’t personally attacked you, yet you feel the need to personally attack me? Grow a set. Stand up for what you believe in. That’s what I’m doing.

Armchair Psychiatrist December 9, 2013 at 2:58 pm

Rachel, Disturbed, Mitch, and Jennifer – Since you think that you can tell Suzi she needs help, maybe I should suggest some for you. Have you considered visiting a cult deprogrammer?

Rachel December 9, 2013 at 3:42 pm

And that’s exactly what they’re doing in the compendium too! You are so hypocritical, it’s crazy! I cannot talk to you anymore, you are clearly lacking the ability to see any fault in yourself. Good day.

Suzi Satterfield December 9, 2013 at 5:26 pm

Standing up for what YOU believe doesn’t mean you have to attack others for what they believe. That’s the whole problem, entirely. Rachel, I have not made one single insult against you, yet you’ve felt the need to repeatedly cast aspersions against me. Think about that. If you can’t state your opinion without feeling the need to personally attack someone else, then maybe you need to figure out how to better express yourself.

Jennifer December 9, 2013 at 9:25 pm

I may not be a medical professional. But, I am still a caring person and because of that, it’s actually quite alarming how you have been behaving over the internet towards The Compendium and it’s creator over the past few months.

So, yes, I believe you should discuss this entire situation with a therapist.

Suzi Satterfield December 9, 2013 at 11:21 pm

I don’t think you’re suggesting anything out of being “caring.” Your language is indicative of other intentions. It’s *not* “caring” to behave as you have.

Look, you like their methods. That’s great. No one has said that you shouldn’t do what works for you. But I do have a problem with being threatened (and, yes, I have been threatened)… and I have a problem with people being bullied for NOT doing it their way or NOT agreeing with their methods. If you think that requires psychological help… well, yeah. Get some of your own.

Jennifer December 8, 2013 at 3:14 pm

The more that is posted, shared and blogged of The Compendium: the more members they get. Granted 5 out of every 100 that join everyday are trolls themselves trying to disrupt the group, people like you (guest blog author, Susie (Suzi?) and the like) are making The Compendium bigger and better because YOU are spreading the word about them. They don’t even need to advertise for themselves because of you. People who recommend The Compendium in other cloth diaper groups are NOT even admins of the group, they’re members who have used the advice with success!

To reiterate previous commenters: look in the mirror. You are the pot calling the kettle black.

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Stacy Mojica December 8, 2013 at 8:29 pm

Hi Jennifer, and all of those who have benefited from advice from the Compendium. I understand the immediate reaction to become defensive. You have had good results, and when I came along and suggested that the advice that really helped you was wrong, you feel that I am saying that by your following that advice and believing in it, you’re also doing something wrong. Not at all, and I’m happy that whatever problems you had were resolved and you can happily cloth diaper now.

But this is not a situation of the pot calling the kettle black. If I ran my own “group” that didn’t allow anyone to come in and suggest bleach. If I deleted their comments and banned them if they said they used bleach. If I banned all the people who said they used Tide. Or Sun. Or Gain. Or Ariel. If I started calling bleach “demon blood” and Tide “radioactive goo.” If I created a Chat group with inappropriate threads on certain days… and cursed up and down every other sentence. If I was just downright nasty to every commenter who disagreed with my One Way and then sent them to The Highway because I had the power to do so. Then, then you would be right.

“A good percentage of us are in there simply because we like watching Horror.” I expected the numbers to grow before they diminish. People want to go into the group and see for themselves. Read for themselves. If TCDC and admins will change their behavior, language, and start respecting accurate science, and citing sources themselves, then everything would be okay and TCDC can happily exist in the cloth community. But the way they have structured their group, they have made themselves outsiders.

I cannot believe that anyone could possibly remain in TCDC, or stand behind it, after the facts have been brought to them. The most brainwashed – maybe. And maybe only simply because they are being told to discredit my words.

For all of you in this boat, I caution you to THINK FOR YOURSELVES. Really, truly, consider things for yourselves. I am going to really start losing faith in people, if everyone says that none of my research or my words mean anything at all, just because I don’t have a chemistry degree. Then what’s the point in learning, or reading anything anymore for that matter? There would literally be no point in independent study.

If you won’t take my word for it, then don’t take their word for it either!! Look it up on your own.

I am not arguing that my opinion is right. I don’t have an opinion. Except I guess that ladies who really want to help people shouldn’t be nasty to some people and nice to others. That’s really kinda hypocritical. I’m just saying…

What I am arguing is that the science I have uncovered is right. There is nothing to agree with or disagree with. There is only science that is true, or statements uttered invoking “science” that are false. You can say “I will use bleach.” Yay. You can say “I won’t use bleach.” Yay. I don’t care. I do care that the facts are known, and that my fellow cloth diapering parents are educated about what really is true, real, factual science.

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Suzi Satterfield December 8, 2013 at 9:15 pm

+1

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Jenna @ A Mama Collective December 8, 2013 at 11:06 pm

Wonderfully said, Stacy.

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Jennifer December 9, 2013 at 11:25 am

The purpose of The Compendium is to help others with cloth diaper care, to remind everyone that cloth diapers are just laundry. There is nothing a cloth diaper is made of that makes it more fragile, thus requiring more gentle care, than lingerie. One cannot tell me that using 1 tsp of baking soda (or whatever drivel is marketed by cloth diaper companies and retailers) in 50 gallons of water to wash 18 diapers, will get them clean enough to put back onto my child. Also, yes, if straight undiluted (regular) bleach is poured directly onto fabric, that fabric will become bleach stained and yes the fibers will be weakened and yes holes will potentially appear. However, The Compendium only recommends bleaching when it is absolutely necessary and only bleaching in diluted bleach. Other than that, they recommend any detergent without fabric softeners and to use it as directed on the detergent container with the corresponding water level for the load size–also, that HE machines take the guesswork out of figuring water level. Laundry should not be this hard, it should not invoke a new mommy war.

The admins are honest and blunt and if there ever is an instance of rudeness or anger, that situation is resolved as promptly as possible–although tone and attitude are almost impossible to put into text and most people read things with their own feelings instead of what the writer meant it to be read in. Yes there is sarcasm, snark and joking within The Compendium and unfortunately there are many who cannot read sarcasm or snark well. That is where the reader needs to take a break from the internet–because one should not get hurt by what a stranger over the internet has to say.

Every one of you who creates a blog post, article or group post for the purpose of flaming The Compendium, apparently have an agenda to beat The Compendium, it’s creator and admins into the ground–which, by the way, is cyber bullying–when they do not do this to you, regardless of what anyone says is in the files (I have yet to see it).

There are now people comparing The Compendium to a cult or Nazis and the creator to a cult leader or Hitler. I had no idea that advising people to do their laundry like its laundry nd telling people not to make their laundry into a kitchen recipe of soup was cult-esque. I did not realize that everyone in The Compendium is committing mass murder, either. Also, I find it odd that website and blog URLs, along with Facebook profile/group names and such are being taken up by a certain person just to prevent The Compendium creator from using them herself.

Why not just let the issue drop? Why continue to be hurt by The Compendium? Why are Heather and Suzi circulating through every site and group mentioning TCDC just to add their own insulted input? You all have kids, right? Don’t you think that your children deserve the massive amounts of attention you are giving to TCDC, instead?

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Suzi Satterfield December 9, 2013 at 2:40 pm

Has it occurred to you that these “sites” that Heather and I post on are sites we post on because, oh, bloggers talk? The Compendium is not hurting me, personally, but they ARE hurting the cloth diapering community at large with their faulty advice and refusal to allow debate/discussion within their group.

There is no One True Way. Anyone who insists that there is should be treated as a danger.

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Jennifer December 9, 2013 at 9:42 pm

Of course no one does their laundry the same. No one, not even The Compendium, says you have to wash cloth diapers any one specific way. Now, getting rid of issues like stink, leaking repelling and rashes require troubleshooting and everyone’s fix is different–that, however, doesn’t mean that if one needs to bleach that they should just pour straight bleach on diapers, there’s a specific and precise method to bleaching.

Also, you do seem quite hurt by them, more specifically by TCDC creator. If you were not, you would continue on with what you do and advise, then when the rare person comes to you with what happened due to TCDC advice, you go through and help them with your advice and if your advice works for them, they’d continue to follow you.

Although, from reading both sides of readers here and there, it seems everyone has lost followers/readers because of this little tiff that started in the Spring of 2013 which you and Heather will not let go. TCDC creator tries to look past the slander, libel, defamation of character, etc. and yet cannot because of all the negative media that sends people to her group, where the select few start up drama and more others gather and learn from the advice.

I have not conveyed any type of insulting context into my responses here and it seems as though you are trying to get me riled up so that I might lose my cool in a response to you. Again, Suzi, I highly recommend you seek out a therapist because your profound agitation towards TCDC and it’s creator–who you do not even know personally, have never met and only have ever interacted with over the internet–is not healthy.

Suzi Satterfield December 9, 2013 at 11:26 pm

WHAT libel? What internet tiff from Spring? I don’t even know what you’re talking about, as I’d never even heard of the group until October.

I don’t know what you’re attributing to me, and maybe that’s why you keep feeling the need to cast aspersions on my character, but it’s ridiculous. As for allegations that I have somehow committed libel, go through and show one instance where I have stated anything that is not true.

As for how I seem quite hurt by them… I don’t know these people. You don’t know me. Don’t pretend to know my motivations… because your guesses are 100% incorrect. The first interaction I had with Kate Shabinov was when she decided to come onto my blog and demand that I take something down. I refused, of course, because she had no standing to make that request. And that was the first time that I had ever heard of her.

Check your ideas. They are highly flawed, particularly when you start guessing at my motivations.

Heather Johnson December 11, 2013 at 11:35 am

Jennifer, you are hard to argue with. And I do not mean that as a compliment.

As a side note, I would never, EVER use bleach on my lingerie. Ouch!

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Heather Johnson December 11, 2013 at 11:39 am

“Don’t you think that your children deserve the massive amounts of attention you are giving to TCDC, instead?”

(1) Mothers are allowed to have their own interests outside of their children.

(2) Says the woman who just wrote a massive blog comment arguing about diaper laundry.

“Why are Heather and Suzi circulating through every site and group mentioning TCDC just to add their own insulted input?”

Bloggers have other blogger friends. Why are the TCDC members circulating through every site as well?

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Heather Johnson December 8, 2013 at 5:40 pm

“9,000 strong CAN’T be wrong!” said the Nazis in Germany of World War II.

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Disturbed December 8, 2013 at 5:49 pm

Godwin’s Law? Really? Wow.

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Heather Johnson December 8, 2013 at 7:41 pm

The point being that just because a lot of people agree on something does not make that something right or correct.

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Stacy Mojica December 8, 2013 at 8:31 pm

I wish I could “like” comments on a blog post. My husband is cracking up right now!

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Jo December 9, 2013 at 12:48 am

I have concerns about TCDC for a couple of reasons, but the main one is that their FB group is closed. I like to suss out groups before I join them, and I totally cannot check out anything on their group without joining. And out of all the cloth diaper mamas I know, not a single one is a member. We have a huge, supportive cloth diaper community in the city that I live it. It is FANTASTIC, open, friendly, and no one slags you if you don’t agree with their laundry routine. The simple fact that none of the hundreds of cloth diaper mamas in my city have joined TCDC suggests to me that I probably won’t like what I find there, and then to not be able to check out the tone of the group just kinda makes me not want to anyhow.

I think that if TCDC wants to be taken seriously, they probably should have started a real website, instead of the locked-down closed group they have on FB. How can you share info that is, by merit of being contained in a closed group, unshareable?

TCDC may claim to have helped over 9,000 people, but until they broaden their reach, they will likely continue to not be taken seriously by people like me, who prefer to see whether a group is helpful, supportive and useful before joining.

I’m not suggesting TCDC isn’t those things, but when you close your group to such an extent that outsiders can’t see in, it doesn’t make outsiders feel particularly warm and fuzzy about things. And when you close your group to outsiders, you also run the risk of being compared to a cult. It’s unfortunate, but perhaps TCDC’s admins could take a lesson from this, and make their group easier to access for those of us who like to check things out before joining. Informed consent is an important part of my internet lifestyle. I don’t join without knowing what the hell is up. I find most intelligent people to be the same way.

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Disturbed December 9, 2013 at 3:07 pm

The reason the group is so closed down might JUST might, have something to do with things like this blog. It’s calling for a campaign against TCDC. Would you want your group wide open to people such as that? I doubt it. Also, most FB groups are closed for the simple reason that there are too many spammers on FB. I admin about 4 FB groups, and the spam is outrageous. Don’t look for some dark reason for it, when it’s probably a simple matter of logistics.

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Suzi Satterfield December 9, 2013 at 3:26 pm

You’ve read the post, right? If TCDC allowed for conversations instead of banning or flaming anyone who disagrees with their One True Way, then these posts wouldn’t be necessary.

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Jo December 9, 2013 at 6:22 pm

I would totally agree with you about the rationale why, except for 2 things:

• It was a closed and locked up group BEFORE all this fur started to fly.
• I also admin a number of FB groups, and you can still have to approve members and have an open group. So please don’t suggest you can’t. I’m not an idiot.

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Disturbed December 9, 2013 at 10:26 pm

It wasn’t long after the group started that there were issues with people coming in to troll. You’re twisting everything I said in my response, and being insulting. Which groups do you admin?

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Jo December 11, 2013 at 8:33 am

Seriously? I responded with 2 facts and I am distorting everything you’ve said? Defensive much?

And if I was trying to be insulting I would have called you an idiot, not asked you to stop suggesting I was. You should probably turn off your computer, get yourself a nice cuppa, and relax.

As for which groups I admin on FB, not a single one is about cloth diapers, so I’m not sure as to why you are asking. Unless of course, you’re thinking you’d get away with trolling them. And considering you aren’t even brave enough to use your name, it wouldn’t surprise me (There. That’s an insult).

Tracie La Rue Moen December 9, 2013 at 9:19 am

I am so confused. I found TCDC after I was struggling to get rid of a fishy smell. I had stripped using Funk Rock twice in a week, washing repeatedly with RnG and still had problems. I did a bleach soak and switched to tide, and its gone. I would love to go back to using a more “crunchy” soap for my diapers, but I already use the tide free and clear for my clothes, so I guess its not really much of a difference. But the so-called CD safe stuff wasn’t working for me? So what should I have done instead?? I guess that’s where I am stumped. I am all for sources and education – my masters degree is serving me so well as I clean up after my 1 year old – and I struggle with name calling. So I get wanting to point out what’s wrong, scientifically, but I would rather see if it followed up with what to do instead!! Now, I am sleep deprived, so maybe I missed it. But what you do recommend when the CD approved methods fail? Do you have a problem-solving site?

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Suzi Satterfield December 9, 2013 at 2:56 pm

Hi Tracie, there are several sites and groups that offer assistance with your issues. My own site offers solutions on stripping for issues.

With your fishy smell, I’d have asked problems, such as your water type, etc. Most likely, I’d have suggested that you double the amount of detergent you’re currently using and then rinse. I wouldn’t have recommended bleach because it’s an issue I’ve seen fixed without the use of a caustic chemical.

I’m glad that it worked for you.

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Melissa Mendez December 9, 2013 at 3:46 pm

I’ve dealt with the fishy smell. That’s no fun. Do you know what kind of water you have? Soft, hard, somewhere in between, well water? That’s your starting point for figuring out how to deal with something. Once you know that, than it’s all a matter of tweaking. I have rather hard well water, and I’ve found that I can use just about any kind of detergent with success, but I have to know if that detergent has a softener in it already. With most “crunchy” detergents, I have to use Calgon for them to work well on my diapers. With commercial detergents (like Tide and such), I usually don’t. And I have tried a LOT of detergents. There are quite a few great sites out there. Thirsties, EcoBabySteps, Padded Tush Stats, to name a couple.

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Tracie La Rue Moen December 9, 2013 at 7:11 pm

I did trouble shoot with my local group that utilizes CD safe methods. I have just regular water – not hard, not soft. (no water softener, just city water) I did increase my detergent and increased from 4 to 6 rinses (2 pre-wash, 2 in wash, 2 after wash). Still no change in fishy smell. I didn’t have any problems at all for like 6 or 7 months. I will check out the ones you listed Melissa. Thank you.

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Melissa Mendez December 10, 2013 at 3:33 pm

You’re welcome, Tracie. :-) I’m definitely no expert (though I do have some experience and I honestly don’t remember what I did to get rid of the fishy smell. I wish I did. Have you tried washing with no detergent? Just plain hot water? Maybe with some oxygen bleach?

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Stacy December 16, 2013 at 9:13 am

Tracie, I apologize that I am just coming on now to reply to comments. Life has been busy :) if you all would read the end of the bleach section above your question would be answered. Fishy smell is absolutely 100% bacteria. Just like when your vagina smells it means you have a UTI or a yeast infection or some other infection. When your diapers are infected, you need to disinfect. That is why bleach solved your problem. It actually was bleach that solved your problem. But it definitely could have been solved by adding 4 tablespoons of vinegar, 1/2 cup hydrogen peroxide, 1 teaspoon tea tree oil, or other disinfectant to your wash routine, OR sunning or boiling. Bleach works. The natural disinfecting methods also work. Please help spread the knowledge that fishy= bacteria= you need to disinfect. Disinfecting is not discussed enough in the cloth community, and it is much more important than we think.

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Ashlee December 10, 2013 at 2:06 pm

Honestly I feel more confused as well after reading through your post. I found TCDC and was excited to start using regular laundry detergents because I’m so tired of spending tons of money, on in my opinion, extremely expensive “cloth diaper safe” brands. The only way my diapers turn out clean with cloth diaper safe brands is to use double the recommended detergent amounts. Before doubling the detergent amounts I had issues with Barn Yard Stink. Now I’m just feeling at a total loss of what detergent to use, and I don’t quite understand what exactly your recommending to use in place of bleach?

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Suzi Satterfield December 10, 2013 at 5:23 pm

Hi Ashlee,

The problem is not that TCDC recommends using mainstream detergents. The problem is that TCDC doesn’t allow dissenting opinions or even discussion… and dismisses all solutions that aren’t theirs as “fairly dust” at their kindest. If that’s what works for you and your fluff, awesome. Your routine isn’t broken if your diapers don’t stink, aren’t falling apart, and your kid isn’t having skin issues. I’m glad that they were able to help you. (Seriously.)

As for bleach, I always recommend oxygen bleach.

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Ashlee December 10, 2013 at 11:33 pm

Thanks, that clears it up for me :) I have been doing a lot of reading from different bloggers and forums as of late and it gets confusing when everyone recommends such different things. I appreciate your response.

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Stacy Mojica December 11, 2013 at 1:43 pm

There are a multitude of different recommendations I suggest using instead of bleach for disinfecting, IF you need to disinfect and IF you don’t want to use bleach :) sun, boiling (the free ones <<), TTO, GSE, oxy bleach, and hydrogen peroxide work just as well. Vinegar and HOT water over 120 degrees farenheit are also gentle disinfectants and should kill all of the bacterial and fungi you want to kill in diapers.

There are a multitude of detergents that will work well IF you don't want to use mainstream detergents. I personally found that Charlie's Soap was MUCH more economical for me than any other mainstream detergent brand, because a $17 container lasts me 80-100 loads, 2-3months worth of laundry, versus cheaper containers of other detergents that I was flying through much faster than that.

Here's a breakdown:
I was using Country Save for a loooong time, the entire first year and part of the second year I cloth diapered. But I had to use 2 heaping scoops per load, in order to get a medium load of diapers clean. Which is equivalent to 6 scoops of RnG (2 loads) or 8 scoops of Charlie's (8 loads)
It ends up being cheaper because one bag of RnG lasts me 2-3 months, and that's using it on ALL of my laundry. One container of Charlie's likewise.

A giant box of Country Save would be gone in 1 month or less. It's important to look at the amounts needed of a detergent, the number of loads listed on the box(and sometimes those are off b/c you have hard water for example), rather than cost of a box or size of a box. If a $17 box lasts me 3 months, and a $4 box only lasts 2 weeks, the $17 box is actually a better buy even if it's smaller.

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kelsey December 10, 2013 at 5:59 pm

This is insane to me! How can diaper laundry get someone so upset? It blows my mind that the way someone washes poop out of their diapers could get people so upset they write blog posts about them and even buy domain names with no other purpose than to keep them from it. There has to be deep rooted issues with some of you. I cannot imagine being that consumed with anger over diaper laundry.

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Rumsita December 11, 2013 at 12:28 pm

I’m curious, did you ever clarify who this “T Sutherland” person is? Is it a chemist, laundry scientist, dog walker, fifth grader, best friend since kindergarten? I’m not necessarily disagreeing with any of what you said, I’m just trying to figure out who these people are you are quoting in “personal communications”, and what “authority” they might possess to be able to make credible statements worth quoting.

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Stacy Mojica December 11, 2013 at 1:37 pm

T. Sutherland is Taylor Sutherland, the CEO of Charlies Soap :) I actually use his full name when I quote him directly in the Charlie’s Soap section http://www.linkedin.com/in/charliesoap

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Disturbed December 12, 2013 at 6:43 am

Anyone want to explain this creepiness? This fake profile has been following around the Admins of TCDC. I was also told that they were trying to join the group as well. Seriously, this obsession is really, really getting creepy, and I don’t mean in the “oh just a weirdo on the internet” creepy…. I mean hairs-going-up-on-the-nape-of-your-neck creepy.

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Disturbed December 12, 2013 at 6:44 am

Anyone want to explain this creepiness? This fake profile has been following around the Admins of TCDC. I was also told that they were trying to join the group as well. Seriously, this obsession is really, really getting creepy, and I don’t mean in the “oh just a weirdo on the internet” creepy…. I mean hairs-going-up-on-the-nape-of-your-neck creepy.

Forgot the link: https://www.facebook.com/theclothdiapercompendium

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Suzi Satterfield December 12, 2013 at 4:23 pm

That one I know nothing about. Any time I do something, I’m blatant about it.

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Jsmith December 14, 2013 at 5:49 am

Totalitarianism: “ Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.[1] ”

There is a cloth diaper group that reminds me of this. Rewording: Everything within the group, nothing outside the group, nothing against the group.

This may ring a bell to all those that have been in the specific group, to those who have had their diaper stash destroyed, to those that have been kicked out and banned from this group due to different ideologies.

I was in this group once. I always followed their rules. I encourage conversation.
I did not voice my anti-bleach rants in their group because I RESPECTED the rules.
I did not encourage CD detergents because I RESPECTED their desire of this not to be mentioned.
I did not create drama because I RESPECTED their rules (even though their admins would mock others and start drama most times).
I was polite and answered questions when the admins were f’ing around with dumb posts.
All because I RESPECTED the group’s rules.
All was fine and dandy until their spies saw me disagree on another group about bleach. Nothing else but bleach. Seconds later they deleted me and blocked me.
No thank you for participating, no agreeing to disagree, or anything of the sort.
I guess RESPECT is a one way street to these people.

Yes, this is a private group and they can do what they want. To this I say then don’t recruit people. Don’t claim to help people when really you don’t want to follow through.

Dictionary’s definition of Helping:
verb (used with object)
1. to give or provide what is necessary to accomplish a task or satisfy a need; contribute strength or means to; render assistance to; cooperate effectively with; aid; assist: He planned to help me with my work. Let me help you with those packages.

Helping does not mean “Do as I say and only as I say!”

This is the issue I have with them:

* They use brainwashing and peer pressure tactics: All the admins tell you to bleach, it’s okay, every other manufacturer is lying but they are not. They delete all negative posts to skew people’s view of them and of their ideas. There are NO negative posts, only positive posts.

* They also use fear tactics: Bleach is the ONLY thing that will get rid of yeast. This is not entirely true. If you search for treatment of yeast on clothes (Candida albicans), you will see majority of sites indicate that detergent with hot water and the sun will kill yeast.
What’s funny, is that one of their bleach documents links to another document that says the following:
“Microbicidal Activity. Hydrogen peroxide is active against a wide range of microorganisms, including bacteria, yeasts, fungi, viruses, and spores”
“Uses: Commercially available 3% hydrogen peroxide is a stable and effective disinfectant when
used on inanimate surfaces.”
“Hydrogen peroxide was effective in spot-disinfecting fabrics in patients’ rooms”
http://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/pdf/guidelines/Disinfection_Nov_2008.pdf

* They actively recruit. They have have their admins going into other groups and posting that bleach is good, come follow our group. Their catch phrase is “eleven thousand strong can’t be wrong” This phrase is an argumentum ad populum. “An argumentum ad populum, in logic, is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it alleges. If many believe so, it is so[2]”

* They remove and ban people who speak up or say anything, even if it is not spoken of in their group.

* They use crowd manipulation: Anyone that speaks up, gets verbally attacked by a small group of members. Then to top if off, the admins constantly post snarky pictures, remarks and quotes to intimidate.

* They don’t post their credentials to back up their claims. They post links to scientific chemistry articles. To to this I say, yes their chemistry works, but this does not apply to laminated textiles.

* I feel their intentions are to an extent malicious. They tell you “no bleach on laminated diapers are a myth”. They encourage you bleach but will take zero responsibility if something goes wrong. They delete and block you and hope you go away. You are pretty much out of luck!

If a manufacturer tells you to bleach and something goes wrong, then I expect the manufacturer will accept the consequences and they usually will. This is why I always say go to them first.

1 – Pipes, Richard (1995), Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime, New York: Vintage Books, Random House Inc., ISBN 0-394-50242-6.* Robert Jaulin L’Univers des totalitarismes (Paris : Loris Talmart, 1995)

2 – Frederic P. Miller, Agnes F. Vandome, John McBrewster (2009), Argumentum Ad Populum, VDM Publishing, ISBN 6130222289.

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Jenna January 20, 2014 at 9:33 am

This is so silly! I use bleach soaks, wash with Tide, use nothing but cold water, and dry my dipes like the rest of my laundry. I use cheapo dipes and have NEVER had a problem. The group admins do NOT delete all negative posts. AND there are cloth diaper companies that ENCOURAGE bleaching your diapers.

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Bridgette January 20, 2014 at 5:19 pm

So basically anyone who is a part of TCDC and chooses to follow their advice or be a part of their group and not yours is brainwashed. And I quote: “I cannot believe that anyone could possibly remain in TCDC, or stand behind it, after the facts have been brought to them. The most brainwashed – maybe. And maybe only simply because they are being told to discredit my words” I don’t feel brainwashed at all. I just feel like they’ve honestly made my life easier because I’m not constantly worrying about doing something wrong. I KNOW the diapers I put on my children’s bums are clean and don’t stink. Its funny because you complain about being “attacked” by the followers of TCDC because you have a differing opinion, yet here your followers are attacking people who have a differing opinion of yours. So control your followers since that is what you are saying TCDC needs to do. You say they [the admins] attack you for your difference of opinion, but what do you call this whole childish post? I believe cloth diapering is to each their own. If soap is what you believe cleans the poop and pee out of your diapers, KUDOS. If detergent is what works for you, GREAT. Why argue and look like a total nutcase? Just give what works for you and move on, as there is no sense in bashing a group whose opinions differ from yours (yet complaining that they do the same to you).

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Irene January 29, 2014 at 5:20 am

Julie, after reading your persuasive essay, I want to question your degree. You pretty much start with a personal attack, followed by a mass attack on all members.

I feel sad that you decided to waste so much time to prove an obvious fact. There are two major sides when it comes CD laundry. One side believes that non cd safe detergents are evil, while the other believe that any mainstream detergent without fabric softeners will do just fine. And TCDC does not preach to use only Tide, or any specific detergent, in fact they encourage to use what ever works, as long as it doesn’t have any softeners.

Something, that you, Julie, missed out completely is the fact that when people get to TCDC, is because they have issues with their diapers, and other methods didn’t work for them, not because everything is working great. When someone comes with a washing routine that works for them, most members will tell them to stick to whatever works. Some people have super soft water and maybe some really low expectations for their diapers. Everyone is different. And “clean” is a relative term. I’ve bought several used diapers, that were described as EUC, without any stink, but when I received them, I couldn’t believe how horrible they smelled. I contacted mama, who send them, and she said that they were washed with RnG and stripped with DAWN. She said that diapers are for catching poop and shouldn’t smell like roses.

You mentioned, that TCDC promotes bleach as the only stripping solution, when the docs offer a solution for every problem in every water. The docs contain a whole bunch of information, that’s why people, who ask for help on other pages, are referred to the group. There are no easy solution that cures every problem. “Strip with Blue Down” simply doesn’t work, unless someone is battling oily residue. And instead of copying and pasting all the docs in comments, people are referred to the group. Trust me, no one is recruiting anyone into the group. When someone is asking for a laundry advice, I genuinely want to share what works for me and for many others.

Personally, I will doubt the effectiveness of any CD safe detergent that also sell boosters, strippers and other additives to troubleshoot the issues that the same CD safe detergent is causing.

I haven’t had to strip yet, my diapers don’t leak, don’t repel, don’t smell, I don’t have a detergent buildup, even though I use half a scoop of Tide, half a scoop of Arm&Hammer, half a scoop of Calgone or Borax, a stain fighter “Dirty Jobs” and a maximum amount of disinfecting bleach in the dispenser. EVERY SINGLE WASH. If detergent build up was a real thing, my diapers would have doubled in weight by now, don’t you think? I know I over wash, but it’s feces we are talking about, not silk scarfs. If a diaper is made out of a material that can’t withstand a proper washing routine, it should not be on the market. I have variety of diapers, pockets, AIO’s, fitteds, bamboo, hemp, CBI, mf, cotton prefolds and everything is getting a bleach treatment every time. If hypochlorite bleach was so evil, I wouldn’t have a single diaper left without holes.

I also dry on high, oh my. Every single time!

Some of my diapers delaminated, that’s true, but it was due to defective PUL and it happened during the first week of use. Sometimes something goes wrong during the manufacturing process and PUL comes out defective and will delaminate even if washed in unicorn farts.

For everyone, who is reading this, I wish you all to have clean diapers, healthy babies and a hobby other than poop catchers. They are not works of art, collectible items or you most priced possession. Get those diapers clean!

First signs that your diapers are not getting clean: smell(clean diapers don’t smell at all, not even a little bit), constant rashes, leaking issues, need to strip and boil regularly! If that’s your case, your washing routine needs adjustment, no matter what you use. Cloth diapers are easy, and if they are causing you constant trouble, you are doing something wrong.

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julie January 29, 2014 at 10:08 am

If you read this series of posts carefully, you would realize that I, Julie, the owner of this blog did not write these articles. In the beginning of each article, I clearly state that these were guest posts, and entirely the guest’s thoughts, opinions and ideas. I do agree with some parts in the articles, but do not take it all as truth. So this comment needs to be addressed to the author, Stacy.

Thank you for your thoughts!

P.S. if you have read any of my blog before, you will also know that I use Tide as well!

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Irene January 29, 2014 at 8:55 pm

Sorry for that, Stacy it is, then.

I’m just wondering why are you allowing something you don’t completely agree with on your site?

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Liz February 11, 2014 at 11:42 am

The TCDC is a nasty piece of work. You disagree with them, however respectfully and you are treated like shit and banned. So if my way of doing things works for me why bash it? I have yet to see proof that the admin of the group is actually credible. The advice given is just ridiculous. Yes use Tide if you so desire. I happen to have 2 kids allergic to Tide and a few other mainstream detergents and in all my time cloth diapering I have yet to have issues with my detergent, Country Save and Nature Clean. I cloth diaper to be more eco friendly and washing those diapers in a chemical detergent makes no sense if I can use a green alternative. So many can’t be wrong they say? I am pretty sure that the Nazi’s and the KKK out number TCDC and moat of humanity agrees that they were wrong. What ever happened to people evaluating what they read and hear? If something sounds really out there it probably is and if a group treats people with disrespects and looks down on it’s members because the admin supposedly has a PhD that is NOT a place to go for advice.

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